Risk in Life (Automotive & Otherwise)

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 05/05/2020 at 15:38 • Filed to: None

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What say you, OPPO? Specifically related to minors, who are rarely making these decisions for themselves.

Torch’s article was about a near-miss he had with Otto in the car.

nerd_racing > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:49

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Every time I go for a ride in the Autozam AZ-1 I have a little discussion in the back of my mind about how I’d be dead in the event of an accident.  Then I remind myself that my affairs are in order, I have savings, life insurance, very little debt to leave to others when I go.  Sure it’s probably a death trap waiting to happen, but man, when I close the gullwing door and rev up the engine  and hear those turbo noises right behind my head, it’s all worth it.  The car just screams for more.  I know for a fact it could use more tire grip, but I also really don’t want to drive it at that level.  I left in the 87 mph speed governor for similar reasons.  

E90M3 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:50

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Life is full of risks, and it really comes down to acceptable risk. 

smobgirl > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:52

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I somehow suspect that pasghetti and/or their offspring probably do  far worse things without even thinking than taking kids for a ride in a modern Abarth.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > smobgirl 05/05/2020 at 15:54

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His comment made me sad. I hope she gets to enjoy it once she’s a little older (he said she’s an infant in later comments). 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > nerd_racing 05/05/2020 at 15:55

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Life is for living, after all.

smobgirl > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:55

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In that case, the car isn’t going to last long enough for her to enjoy.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > smobgirl 05/05/2020 at 15:55

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LOL

Brutal. 

smobgirl > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:57

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I might be projecting a bit.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > smobgirl 05/05/2020 at 15:57

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Maybe a smidge. 

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:57

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if its safe enough for me its safe enough for my family far as i’m concerned

i might turn around and try to push me daughter towards buying a newer safer car than the shitboxes i favour when she starts driving coz im a hypocrite...but thats about it

jimz > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:58

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I like how that dimp acts as though the only cars that are “safe” are Volvos, Subarus, and Teslas. What a maroon.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:59

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I’ve taken my little cousins for a ride in my ‘69 Corvette, but I specifically stuck to just going around the neighborhood a couple times at 25mph. I’m always on the fence about this though and am unsure how I’ll approach it with my daughter once she’s old enough to ride in it. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 15:59

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I think this has a lot to do with the environment in which your car is used.

Small cars are designed for urban environments where traffic speeds are low. There’s no problem with a S mart ForTwo when everyone in downtown is doing 15-20 mph .

But if your commute involves rural roads with goods vehicles, you can bet that I would at least want a modern midsize sedan or CUV with some mass . These are where the deadliest head-on collisions typically occur, and even the safest driver cannot outrun the stupidity of all the other bad drivers.

M y bottom line is, I will never put into daily use a non-modern car with no airbags and outdated structural designs. This doesn’t even concern my family—I wouldn’t do that even if I were single. Airbags and modern crash structures have reduced accident injuries and deaths by an order of magnitude.

In the 1980s, a 30 mph collision could be fatal. In modern cars it’s very likely a walk-away incident.

In isolated events held in controlled environments, t he participation risk with an old car is non-zero but much lower than in daily real-world use. Anything that happens is much more likely to be your own fault, so it’s down to whether you can handle that old muscle car responsibly .

ihm96 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:00

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I just bought an MG Midget so I’m firmly with you. Can’t imagine how cool it must’ve been to fly in that plane.

Obviously there are certain lines you don’t cross, but I’d rather live a life well lived than drive a camry to a 9 to 5 and not feel alive. This is the same as those parents who refuse to teach their kids manual on their own car and then tell my generation that we’re the reason manuals arent sold anymore. I just turned 24 and my dad said that to me recently despite the fact that all the cars ive bought were manual and I only learned because I wanted to (he a vette and then a 911 and wouldnt teach me). My dad and those of his age were the ones buying cars the past 20 years, not me. Its their fault lol

atfsgeoff > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:01

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The relative crash safety of a car I’m driving barely even registers when I get in, with or without kids. Far more important is its gen eral roadworthiness and tire condition, as well as the current weather conditions. I would much rather be in a well-maintained Miata than in a Suburban with bald tires, worn brakes and suspension so loose it has death-wobble. I’m a big proponent of active safety over passive.

I also commute on a motorcycle though so consider the source

Long_Voyager94 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:01

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I daily 90s vehicles, you already know my answer.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 05/05/2020 at 16:02

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Oh, yeah, I’ll definitely have my kids driving something new-ish and safer and not too powerful for several years.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > atfsgeoff 05/05/2020 at 16:03

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Very good point on condition. 

Spanfeller is a twat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:03

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I think that children effectively cannot measure the amount of danger an unsafe vehicle posses, as such I think its reasonable to prohibit them from being taken on joy rides (even if their parents agree)

But the argument “if its only me it’s okay” is flawed; an accident is still a mayor nuisance for lots of first responders and a true pain for family and friends. Its like thinking you can race a bike faster because you have a helmet on.

If you drive irresponsibly... Just own it... There’s no escaping the truth that the risk is still un acceptable for society and you're just chosing to ignore their greater goals.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/05/2020 at 16:03

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It’s a balance. 

For Sweden > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:04

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Don’t go flying in an old airplane unless the owner has some serious F-U money to spend on maintenance.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:04

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I have always pictured how I would fare in a collision in my D100. Likley a steering column to the chest, whiplash and glass to the back of the head, even in a minor one.

If I had kids, would I let them drive with me? Probably. Just in the countryside or something. Can’t be more dangerous than one of those kiddie trailers for bicycles I see all the time.   

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > smobgirl 05/05/2020 at 16:05

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Striking out the Abarth, even for short trips, is overkill IMO. If you stay in the neighbourhood or in the city, where these cars were designed for, nobody’s going to kill you at 15-25 mph.  You’d be in more danger simply by walking as a pedestrian.

On rural highways, I would definitely agree on avoiding that kind of car.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:05

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I take my kids driving in my 50 year old datsun all the time. I’m always careful driving that car but am not afrai d to drive it. I’m trying to convince my daughter that she should learn to drive the z as it is actually easier to drive than my Mazda since it has more torque and is harder to stall when starting out. She is not convinced, but once she gets a couple of 2nd gear pulls to 7,000 rpm  I think she will come around.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > For Sweden 05/05/2020 at 16:05

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Same with old cars tbh.  

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:06

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I think some people go way overboard on the safety thing. Won’t let the kids ride with you in a modern Fiat 500 or 350Z?

That’s just ridiculous... especially if the same parent allows their kid to ride a bicycle, participate in sports or go swimming.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ihm96 05/05/2020 at 16:09

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It was AMAZING.

I’ll admit that I overdid it one time with my daughter in my car when she was younger. She wanted to join me on a backroadtrip, and so I let her come along. There was one time that weekend where I was behind a couple fast S2000s in some tight twisty stuff, and I wanted to stick with them. I’m a good driver, and was in a very capable car, she and I both had fun and had no issues, but afterward I realized I’d been pushing too close to the limit with her in the car. Won’t let it happen again.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/05/2020 at 16:10

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I don’t see a problem as long as you have evaluated the traffic conditions in your neighbourhood, and the associated risks.

Oh, and the permission of the parents, that’s kind of important too.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/05/2020 at 16:11

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Or the skill to do it all himself. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > jimz 05/05/2020 at 16:12

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They may have slightly higher average crash ratings than their competition, but you can’t extrapolate that to say that other cars are “unsafe.”

That’s like saying someone who got an A- in math is “stupid.”

These people are victims of marketing and self-validation.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 05/05/2020 at 16:12

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“ even the safest driver cannot outrun the stupidity of all the other bad drivers”

Sad truth.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > atfsgeoff 05/05/2020 at 16:13

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“ I also commute on a motorcycle though so consider the source”

All good until that wobbly bald tired suburban hits you at speed at a red light.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:14

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I don’t even trust that really. I mean, skill without money for parts/equipment not to mention desire to do a good job is useless.

B_dol > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:16

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Safety, of myself and my family is the reason I did not purchase a Lotus Elise a while back - and why I look fondly at some classic cars but will largely avoid ownership.

That being said I have no qualms strapping my daughter into the Z4M coupe for a short jaunt of two. It has child seat anchors and a passenger airbag off switch.

If it safe enough for me to drive regularly it is safe enough for my wife and family to be passengers in. Accident avoidance is always the foremost strategy and I cannot dwell on rare, unfortunate situations where only a tank would provide the utmost safety.

When it comes time for my kid(s) to drive themselves I will absolutely lean more heavily on modern safety standards.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/05/2020 at 16:16

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Just saying, doesn’t take FU money to keep an old car running well & safely. 

Jim Spanfeller > Long_Voyager94 05/05/2020 at 16:17

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I daily (or did, before it broke down...) a car from 1966. That tells you pretty much everything you need to know...

My bird IS the word > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:17

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This is why you don’t dd old cars. That being said, millions of people survived those decades. I would say most of the time cars are safer than motorcycles in a collision. You can’t “what if” yourself to death.

I only get one life, I intend to actually live it.

Jim Spanfeller > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/05/2020 at 16:19

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I just tell myself “It’s safer than a motorcycle” and leave it at that.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:20

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I daily drove my Nova in the summer time, so I guess that’s my answer.

Everything in life is a calculated risk. Why do you think cruises are so popular? They’re for people who want minimum risk, to the detriment of experience.

Same thing with bulbous, sterile CUVs.

Th ere are too many differing opinions to ever determine which is right or wrong. Me? I’m going to go for experie nce over safety more than most.

Long_Voyager94 > Jim Spanfeller 05/05/2020 at 16:21

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We drove this everywhere before we sold it to fix our truck.

The kids absolutely loved it. I wouldn’t think twice about buying another to daily.

The visibility and awareness you have in something like that is something new cars lack. Honestly, I feel I have a greater chance of being in a crash in my new van than I ever have in my old vehicles.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > B_dol 05/05/2020 at 16:22

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I’ve had a test drive in an Elise - thankfully I’m not any more compulsive than I am... Something I LOVE about my M3 is that I can share the experience with my kids. Even when my oldest is driving and I could, theoretically, buy a 2-seater, I may still end up with something with a backseat so all 3 and come along on a fun drive on a nice day with me.

BMWs have lots of inherent safety built in - they’re never the lightest, for that reason.

Situational awareness definitely is more important than any safety feature. I completely agree with you on the cars that my kids will eventually drive. 

3point8isgreat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:23

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Even before finding terminal rust on my mustang, I had already been realizing that I’d never let younger kids ride in it. It’s just a ‘97, and has all the normal factory “safety” equipment. But I have no fantasy that the car isn’t just a tin can with some land mines pointed at me.  (I don’t really trust old airbags)

When buying my Veloster the safety ratings were definitely checked.  Not sure how high they were on the priority list. But I think it was one of those things where since the results were good I didn’t care.  But if the results were bad it’d be a big deal.

Once I found significant structural rust I knew it’s DD days were done too. I still use it as a back up car, or just commute once a week or two to keep the fluids moving. But for now it mostly just waits until I have the time/space to turn it into a Locost or something silly.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:27

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That’s the #1 thing I took away from the whole series of “Motorcycle Safety Foundation” classes— it trains you to continually look for threats, hidden obstacles, risks.

My view remains that Torch is nutty for taking his son out in that car, in that environment. I read all his safety related posts with a huge grain of salt. ( His ABS-in-the-Rain post last year was the worst safety advice ever dispensed from a so-called expert.) JMHO.

Cash Rewards > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:28

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I think he’s off, but not by too far. Old enough to have a driver’s license is a bit much. I take my 4 and 6 year olds out in the Miata, but I stick to neighborhood streets. Never been on a road with a speed limit over 35, and 98% of the time it’s roads with 25mph speed limits , stop signs and sidewalks. I wouldn’t take them anywhere where something out of my control could harm them (within reason) just for a joyride. And even then, the main road into town (again, 25mph) I tend to shy away from for roads with more foot traffic than car traffic.

jimz > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 05/05/2020 at 16:28

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IIHS rates the 500 as “good” (their highest rating) in everything except small overlap.  

Jim Spanfeller > Long_Voyager94 05/05/2020 at 16:32

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That’s the one thing about my Th underbird that I think makes it not so bad as far as safety is concerned. I might not fare so well in a crash, but people are far more likely to notice a big, flashy, bright orange old land yacht than a newer C ivic or Camry or whatever. It’s like a high-visibility jacket on wheels.

Your old car is cool, what is it?

phenotyp > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:32

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That’s a super tough one. I shudder to think about all the rickety shit I was flown around in, as a kid.

atfsgeoff > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/05/2020 at 16:34

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First rule of motorcycling is to assume everyone is out to kill you. Before proceeding through an intersection, always glance both directions to ensure traffic is, in fact, stopped. Easy enough most times, but in big cities you have to slow down a lot because of the blind intersections.

Oh, and always keep an eye on your mirrors when stopped at a light, and always have an escape plan if you see a 6000lb SUV about to ram you.

Future next gen S2000 owner > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:38

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I’m of the assumption that you do not live life fearing death. Sure you could get in an accident while in the Abarth and a child could be killed. That’d be fucking awful. I’ve been closer to getting killed than most people, I’ve taken away from those experiences a desire to feel truly alive.

Sure, you take reasonable precautions but I won’t let those stop me from enjoying the things I love and sharing them with my kids. I would have no qualms about putting my kids in a 1991 Z300 if they were in the correct seats and were correctly installed.

I don’t want my kids to fear living because something bad might happen. I want to teach them to eval u ate the risk vs reward and make those decisions themselves. This is all within reason. Some decisions have to be made by the adult because the kid doesn’t understand all the risk but I think it’s better to teach them risk early on. Then hopefully they’ll make a better decision when I’m not there.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > atfsgeoff 05/05/2020 at 16:38

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this is why I’ll never ride.

atfsgeoff > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/05/2020 at 16:41

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It’s definitely not for everyone, or even most

RallyWrench > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:41

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I struggle with this. When I had my ‘66 Fairlane, I didn’t feel comfortable strapping our first kid in the back seat because it had only a terrible squishy bench seat, lap belts, and Flintstone floors. That car was a deathtrap, and was unsafe when new. The 911, though small and perhaps unsafe by modern standards, was a safe car in its time, is well engineered and built, and still has secure ways to hold a kid. It has a lot of passive safety, what Jason calls external safety. I can see a lot and get out of its way quickly, always conscious of external dangers precisely because I’m driving that car. If I’m not mistaken, BMW actually marketed this at one point.

Being a bicyclist helps, because I always see and assume the worst in surrounding motorists. Probably the same for motorcyclists when they drive a car. We thankfully don’t live in a heavily populated area, there are not a lot of bad traffic situations, and I certainly don’t speed or attack backroads with one of the girls in the car. But they like riding in it a lot, it’s something to bond over, and I’m not going to deny them that. My life has been defined by the cars people took time to share with me as a kid. It’s important to me to do the same. Unless I do something exceptionally stupid, there’s not a lot of risk around here.

I’m not one of those idiots who says “ We did a lot of dumb shit, but we lived hurr durr ”, but there’s an acceptable risk. I mean, I rode up highway 1 to Big Sur... in the back of my dad’s pickup. Not doing that! But they can’t live in a bubble. If I denied them drives in the car because other people are idiots, I may as well skip taking them hiking, backpacking and camping because there are bears and mountain lions, surfing because of sharks, bicycles because of cars. Hell, in these times, a lot of people will feel like they can never go outside again because the Rona is out to get us forevermore. Reasonable precaution will carry the day in all these things. I’d never forgive myself if my children were injured or worse in my car. But they’d never really know their dad if I didn’t share it with them.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > jimz 05/05/2020 at 16:44

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eh...the 500 is a perfectly safe car....in europe...where its likely you’ll be hit by something similar sized....instead of the fucking nimitz with truck nuts

Thomas Donohue > For Sweden 05/05/2020 at 16:46

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This is interesting advice, and likely will apply to many borderline-bankrupt airlines in a post-pandemic world.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > jimz 05/05/2020 at 16:47

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T hose ratings are only as good as the mass equality between two colliding cars (you can’t win a head-on collision against a Suburban or a big-rig, for example), but small cars in the city or light residential neighbourhoods are really a non-issue.

For Sweden > Thomas Donohue 05/05/2020 at 16:48

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So many Mad-Dogs coming out of the boneyard with oil prices this low.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 05/05/2020 at 16:51

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What car was Torch referring to?

DipodomysDeserti > smobgirl 05/05/2020 at 16:54

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I owned an Abarth and a Corvair at the same time. The Fiat felt pretty safe to me.

DipodomysDeserti > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 05/05/2020 at 16:55

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And yet in places like Ireland, everyone is zipping around on very small, rural roads  in Polos, with plenty of semis sharing the roads.

DipodomysDeserti > Jim Spanfeller 05/05/2020 at 16:56

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I daily’d a handful of ‘70s motorcycles with cable operated drum brakes for a while. That pretty much tells you everything you need to know...

I’m an idiot.

Long_Voyager94 > Jim Spanfeller 05/05/2020 at 16:58

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It was a 66 Buick Electra 225.

I miss it dearly.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 16:59

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Definitely things that change with age and responsibilities, at different rates for different people. In my single days I did plenty of stuff I look back on and can’t believe. Drive to Yosemite in the middle of a winter storm in a 25 y/o E30 with no traction nannies and pretty crappy cheap snow tires with 3 friends as passengers? Done. Twice. Would I do that with my wife and 2 year old now? Hell no. Even looking back at the risk I put my friends in back then doing that I cringe.

With my own kid I think it all comes down to what the car is, what is safe for her age, and where/how it’s being driven. Burly classic with zero safety equipment when she’s 10 and can sit in the front seat and it’s just a ride through the neighborhood/surface streets? Sure. I’d rather do that than say take her for a ride on a race track in our current Outback for example in her car seat. So many variables.

ranwhenparked > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 17:01

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I really don’t care, honestly, safety ranks about as low as fuel economy, CO2 emissions, and resale value on the list of attributes I consider when shopping for a car. I’m not opposed to any of those things, if they happen to just come incidentally with the car I want, I just don’t consider or look for them.

To be honest, if all safety features were optional and ordered a la carte, the only one I’d probably pay extra money for willingly would be seatbelts, for the rest, I’d rather just have the cheaper car. 

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 17:05

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Depends on how you want to live your life. When you have dependants your priorities change.

If I had young kids I might not have a sport bike, maybe not even a bike at all.

We’re all different and we weigh risk differently. When I go to work there’s always a possibility of me being crushed, maimed, electrocuted, asphyxiated, burned, or poisoned. Thus riding or driving to work at 10pm might actually be safer than performing my job some days, especially if I’m over worked and tired.

That being said, I really enjoy being free and taking calculated risks others might not dare to do.

Jim Spanfeller > Long_Voyager94 05/05/2020 at 17:10

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Nice. A ‘64 Buick Electra was the other car I was considering before I bought my T-bird, but I had been bitten by the Thunderbird bug and had to have one.

Allow me to tempt you with this nice ‘66 Buick Electra for sale in good shape for $5,500...  https://www.smartmotorguide.com/L50234105

Jim Spanfeller > DipodomysDeserti 05/05/2020 at 17:17

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Buying and dailying the Th underbird was the best bad decision I’ve ever made :p

No regerts!

B_dol > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 17:24

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I will never turn down seat time in a Lotus, what an experience!

TheRealBicycleBuck > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/05/2020 at 17:25

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“Can’t be more dangerous than one of those kiddie trailers for bicycles I see all the time.”

The statistics behind the relative dangers of riding in a child trailer is effectively zero. From 1999 to 2018, the annual death count for children on bicycles (or in trailers) aged four and under never exceeds 6. While tragic, that’s 6 kids in 20,000,000.

Part of the low numbers is a low participation rate, therefore a low exposure rate. Riding in any car is more dangerous. The death rate for children in automobiles is 2 deaths per 100,000 children.

Even so, that’s really, really low.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/05/2020 at 17:27

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Statistically, there are many more kids killed in cars than bicycling or playing sports or swimming.

Even so, I wouldn’t hesitate to take my kids for a ride in either of those cars. One of the reasons I bought my WRX is so I had something with enough room for the kids.

DipodomysDeserti > RallyWrench 05/05/2020 at 17:29

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Yeah, I’m more of the “my dad put me in the back of a pickup, and I’ll never do anything THAT dangerous.”

I’ve taken my kids hiking in places that were prett y dangerous, but I knew what the risk was and did everything to mitigate it (plenty of water, know the area, first aid training, maps...). Yeah, it’s still possible that both my brother and I get hurt and we all die out in the desert, had a high school friend die in a hiking accident in Yosemite when I was a kid, so I know it’s always a real risk. However,  as we’re all getting to see, sitting inside all day behind a computer because of safety is an absolutely wasted life.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > TheRealBicycleBuck 05/05/2020 at 17:37

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“there are many more kids killed in cars than bicycling or playing sports or swimming.”

Not on a per-mile-travelled basis...

:-p

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > DipodomysDeserti 05/05/2020 at 17:47

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Sure, and Europe has less stringent crash specs for passenger cars too. There’s no 5 mph bumper requirement (a cost control measure, sure), no IIHS Small Overlap crash tests and they don’t even have a general SRS airbag requirement. The environment is different and the expectations people place on cars are different.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 18:13

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After I crashed a Ram 3500 the other day due to the worst drivers on the road(truck drivers, seriously, I’m consistently amazed at their lack of skills), I kind of thought about this for a moment. I daily a plastic fantastic GM car. Then I remembered watching my grandfather passing from Alzheimer’s, and decided that decapitation by eighteen wheel seems like a more pleasant way to go. Then I looked up crash test info on the C5, and while they never had to test it, when they did it held up remarkably well. Even the console is designed to not open and eject it’s contents in a crash. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 18:13

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I have a very cavalier perspective concerning risk, mostly because I understand the statistics and what they mean.

Unintentional injuries are the leading cause of death for everyone until they reach 44 years old, then cancer and heart disease take over. That being said, the highest death by accident rate is 56.6 per 100,000 for 25 to 34 year olds. That’s a 1 in 1,767 chance per year of dying in an accident until you’re 44 years old.

For kids, the accidental death rates are significantly lower:

1-4 years old: 7.9 /100k

5-9 years old : 3.5 /100k

10-14 years old : 4.1 /100k

15-19 years old: 18.7 /100k

All of these numbers come from the CDC if you’re interested.

Most of us wouldn’t even think twice about exposing ourselves or our children to a risk if they knew that there was a 1 in 5,347 chance of dying. Sure, it’s more likely to happen than winning the lottery, but it’s still a really, really small number.

While I’m not interested in my kids bungee jumping or hang gliding or riding a motorcycle , I don’t have a problem with them flying or rock climbing or mountain biking. It’s more dangerous for them to drive to the event than participate. Sure, they may get hurt, but it’s not likely to result in their demise. The data shows that a lifetime of avoiding activity is more likely to get you killed from heart or circulatory diseases in the long run.

S ometimes it’s just better to live a little.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/05/2020 at 18:14

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Now your just playing with the data. :D

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/05/2020 at 18:46

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Not on the street, at least not for now. Maybe when I’m 60. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > RallyWrench 05/05/2020 at 18:48

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Yes, all of this. Thanks for going deep, my friend. 

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 18:55

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I desperately want an Africa Twin, but there is no chance in hell of me riding in any urban/suburban area on it, so what’s the point.

also, BC is the worst jurisdiction to get a bike license in.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > phenotyp 05/05/2020 at 18:55

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Oh, for sure. I rode in the backs of pickups plenty of times, and my parents would just let us roll around in the back of our crappy Dodge conversion van on cross-country roadtrips... But we know better now, right? 

RallyWrench > DipodomysDeserti 05/05/2020 at 19:11

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This, exactly. They can’t live a life indoors, in fact the current reality of quarantines and o nline schooling drives that home. P arents our age who maybe barely escaped the 80's with our lives and limbs, and kne w people who didn’t, can apply that experience to reasonable boundaries of risk to let our own kids grow and develop. M y hippie parents rebelled pretty hard a gainst their own button-down upbringings, and I think that carried into the relative freedom we had as kids in the 80's. M aybe it was a little too much freedom, in hindsight, b ut the lessons learned w ere priceless, and my wife (who had an even more unsupervised childhood than I did) a nd I both apply them to our own parenting. All the best stuff comes with a certain level of risk. 

RallyWrench > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 19:27

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You’re worth it, bud. Happens to be a subject I think about a lot. 

Nauraushaun > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/05/2020 at 20:19

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That wonderful 1990 Z is a death trap...compared to m odern cars. But it’s far more safe than most of the cars made in the 100 years prior to it.

It’s far more safe than any motorbike ever made.

I think the take-away from this is that it’s all relative. There’s a chance you’ll get crushed to death in a brand new 5 star car, and a chance it will happen in an older car. A small chance either way, a slightly bigger chance in the latter.

A nd certainly my parents were happy enough driving me around in a 70s Celica. In fact all our parents drove us around in “death traps” compared to today’ s cars, and their parents before them. The chance of a crash in any car is always present yet always miniscule.

I think the best option is not to draw hard lines in the sand and say “nobody under can ride in my car, because it’s not responsible”. Instead, c onsider the risk, act accordingly, drive accordingly.

In an unrelated note, I drove my young cousin on a twisty road once in my 1990 MR2. We had the roof off, it was great, apparently he raved about it all afternoon to his dad, and it was about the only moment the two of us have ever actually shared. It was dry, I knew the road, I know the car well enough , it was relatively safe even if I was going relatively fast in a car relatively unsafe compared to what’s on the roads.

Let’s not drown ourselves in fear, uncer tainty, doubt (FUD).

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 05/05/2020 at 21:08

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Well said. 

Long_Voyager94 > Jim Spanfeller 05/06/2020 at 07:00

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She looks in about as good of shape as mine was. I traded our 95 Sport Wagon for ours.

nerd_racing > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/06/2020 at 11:20

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They say you only live once.  That is false, you live every day,  you only die once.  

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > nerd_racing 05/06/2020 at 11:24

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And some people live a life that’s just dying a little more every day...

Nauraushaun > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/06/2020 at 18:10

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Thanks!